What If We Closed the Ed Schools? - Classroom 2.02024-03-28T18:54:16Zhttps://www.classroom20.com/forum/topics/649749:Topic:71370?commentId=649749%3AComment%3A73183&x=1&feed=yes&xn_auth=no>How do you get that?
Som…tag:www.classroom20.com,2007-11-09:649749:Comment:731832007-11-09T15:05:19.989ZMarielle Langehttps://www.classroom20.com/profile/widged
>How do you get that?<br />
<br />
Something mentioned only very late in the article: "Another important factor, the report states, is that new teachers are trained “in schools with strong leadership.”"<br />
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Could it influence the positive results?
>How do you get that?<br />
<br />
Something mentioned only very late in the article: "Another important factor, the report states, is that new teachers are trained “in schools with strong leadership.”"<br />
<br />
Could it influence the positive results? Hmmm, color me quizzical.
Po…tag:www.classroom20.com,2007-11-09:649749:Comment:731812007-11-09T14:43:03.920ZEd Joneshttps://www.classroom20.com/profile/EdJones
Hmmm, color me quizzical.<br />
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Poking around the project website, I'm not finding exactly what their requirements are, or what they teach, other than that grads will pass muster by the California Commission on Teacher Credentialing. (Since I'm not up on that august body, its hard for me to evaluate this).<br />
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What it does look like, though, is that they totally skip the real problem: Teachers with <i>solid real-world content-matter expertise</i>.<br />
<br />
Students ever will respect, admire, listen to, and…
Hmmm, color me quizzical.<br />
<br />
Poking around the project website, I'm not finding exactly what their requirements are, or what they teach, other than that grads will pass muster by the California Commission on Teacher Credentialing. (Since I'm not up on that august body, its hard for me to evaluate this).<br />
<br />
What it does look like, though, is that they totally skip the real problem: Teachers with <i>solid real-world content-matter expertise</i>.<br />
<br />
Students ever will respect, admire, listen to, and learn from a person who <i>knows their stuff</i> (OK, most days ;-) ) . Yes, it helps to know a bit about human psychology, and how to stay out of hot water. But the core of that teacher-student relationship is that the person teaching has something of real value to pass on; they have a passion for sharing it; they can put that thing in a context that makes sense for the learner.<br />
<br />
How do you get that?<br />
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<a href="http://www.hightechhigh.org/about/">High Tech High</a> is another CA credentialing authority (they also teach kids), and it happens I heard from the CEO last month. When asked about their highly successful teachers, he <b>doesn't credit HTH's training and mentoring programs</b>.<br />
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Instead, Rosenstock points to the topical expertise and passion the teachers brought in when HTH hired them. The examples he uses are at the extremes: a professional mathematician, a muralist, and a FT mother / literacy volunteer. Most of their candidates, though, are experienced <i>outside education</i>; in fact most are in their early thirties.<br />
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Sure, that model is hard to scale up, we have to take many teachers younger than that. But the one thing to take from his remarks and their hiring requirements: they are most interested in what candidates learned <i>outside the Ed school</i>. Some of that may come from a broad-based traditional arts and sciences college education. Some may come from being a shift manager at Einstein Bagles, or a design professional ,or an assistant land surveyor, or a medical technician. Some might likely come from interacting with students through coaching, mentoring, volunteer leadership.<br />
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This ed school vs. mentoring/practical experience seems a false dichotomy.<br />
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You can see Larry's remarks <a href="http://www.aei.org/events/eventID.1522/event_detail.asp#">here</a>; >FF> to hour 2:27. Ha! So much for our attempts…tag:www.classroom20.com,2007-11-08:649749:Comment:729602007-11-08T22:33:31.272ZIan Grove-Stephensenhttps://www.classroom20.com/profile/yacapaca
Ha! So much for our attempts to be radical and ahead of the curve.
Ha! So much for our attempts to be radical and ahead of the curve. Check this out in tne NY Time…tag:www.classroom20.com,2007-11-08:649749:Comment:729552007-11-08T22:08:48.426ZSylvia Martinezhttps://www.classroom20.com/profile/smartinez
Check this out in tne NY Times: <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/04/business/04frame.html?ref=business">Rethinking How to Teach the New Teachers</a><br />
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"...Reach Institute for School Leadership, a group based in Napa, Calif., has started an innovative program, designed by and for teachers, that has the potential to transform those first stressful years in the classroom. Reach’s newly accredited, two-year teacher credentialing program has a goal of attracting a new generation of committed…
Check this out in tne NY Times: <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/04/business/04frame.html?ref=business">Rethinking How to Teach the New Teachers</a><br />
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"...Reach Institute for School Leadership, a group based in Napa, Calif., has started an innovative program, designed by and for teachers, that has the potential to transform those first stressful years in the classroom. Reach’s newly accredited, two-year teacher credentialing program has a goal of attracting a new generation of committed teachers, mentors and school administrators — and keeping them for a lifetime.<br />
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In traditional credentialing programs, student teachers spend most of their time taking education courses and seminars. The time they spend in a classroom teaching students is relatively brief — often just two weeks.<br />
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The Reach program flips this traditional model on its ear.<br />
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Instead of spending most of their time learning about being a teacher, Reach’s students start the program at the front of the classroom from the very first day, with a teacher mentor by their side." Nice scenario of total calami…tag:www.classroom20.com,2007-11-06:649749:Comment:720182007-11-06T19:47:29.166ZMarielle Langehttps://www.classroom20.com/profile/widged
Nice scenario of total calamity ;-). The first thing to ask would be "what are you trying to achieve with the redesign".<br />
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I do development work. An excellent book I have come across is <a href="http://www.web-redesign.com/">Web Redesign 2.0, Workflow that works</a>.<br />
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They propose <a href="http://www.web-redesign.com/downloads/03_client-survey.pdf">a survey, to give to the client</a> (pdf).<br />
<br />
Current Site<br />
1.Do you feel your current site promotes a favorable user experience? Why or why not?<br />
2.What…
Nice scenario of total calamity ;-). The first thing to ask would be "what are you trying to achieve with the redesign".<br />
<br />
I do development work. An excellent book I have come across is <a href="http://www.web-redesign.com/">Web Redesign 2.0, Workflow that works</a>.<br />
<br />
They propose <a href="http://www.web-redesign.com/downloads/03_client-survey.pdf">a survey, to give to the client</a> (pdf).<br />
<br />
Current Site<br />
1.Do you feel your current site promotes a favorable user experience? Why or why not?<br />
2.What specific areas of your current site do you feel are successful? Why are they successful?<br />
3.What shortcomings exist with the current site, and what three things would you change on the site today if you could?<br />
4.Have you conducted usability tests or gathered visitor feedback for your current site? If so, how long ago? Please include any reports or findings.<br />
5.How important is it to maintain your current look and feel, logo, and branding?<br />
<br />
Reasons for Redesign<br />
1.What are the main reasons you are redesigning your site (new business model, outdated site, expanded services, different audience)?<br />
2.What are your primary online business objectives with the site redesign? What are your secondary objectives? (Examples include increased sales, marketing/branding awareness, and fewer customer service calls.) Please discuss both long- and short-term goals.<br />
3.What is the main business problem you hope to solve with the site redesign? How will you measure the success of the solution?<br />
4.What existing strategy (both on- and offline) is in place to meet the new business objectives?<br />
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Audience/Desired Action<br />
1.Describe a typical site visitor. How often are they online, and what do they generally use the web for? Give basic demographics: age, occupation, income level, purchasing habits. (Use as much detail as possible in profiling your target user. Profile more than one type if appropriate.)<br />
2.What is the primary “action” the site visitor should take when coming to your site (make a purchase, become a member, search for information)?<br />
3.What are the key reasons why the target audience chooses your company’s products and/or services (cost, service, value)?<br />
4.How many people (as far as you can tell) access your site on a daily, weekly, or monthly basis? How do you measure usage? Do you forecast usage to increase after the site launch and by how much?<br />
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... and it continues<br />
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What would be your questions (i.e., what are the critical issues to consider when considering a complete redesign)? What would be your answers?<br />
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The point of this comment is that you cannot content yourself with a partial answer that seem to do better in a given area. You need the new structure to work, as a whole. An implementation is only as good as the weakest part is. In my scenario, I would ensur…tag:www.classroom20.com,2007-11-06:649749:Comment:720022007-11-06T19:24:57.396ZIan Grove-Stephensenhttps://www.classroom20.com/profile/yacapaca
In my scenario, I would ensure that your goals were better aligned with those of the whole system, so you saw your interns as having the same right to learn as your (other) students. How is the system structured now, so you defend your current students so loyally (very laudable, btw)? I would want to fit your mentees' development into the same framework.<br />
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Take your point about the benefits of formal teaching of education, but as the hypothetical mastermind of this change, I would be sore afraid…
In my scenario, I would ensure that your goals were better aligned with those of the whole system, so you saw your interns as having the same right to learn as your (other) students. How is the system structured now, so you defend your current students so loyally (very laudable, btw)? I would want to fit your mentees' development into the same framework.<br />
<br />
Take your point about the benefits of formal teaching of education, but as the hypothetical mastermind of this change, I would be sore afraid of backsliding to the familiar comforts of the old system. Rather than take that risk, I would teach the formal component entirely via the best Web 2.0 distance learning systems I could find (<a href="http://moodle.org/">Moodle</a>? or is there something more appropriate?), with the mentors tied right in, and regular formal assessments via <a href="http://yacapaca.com">Yacapaca</a> of course. I love it!tag:www.classroom20.com,2007-11-06:649749:Comment:719532007-11-06T18:20:19.174ZJeremy Aldrichhttps://www.classroom20.com/profile/gxeremio
I love it!
I love it! Great question!
I would requ…tag:www.classroom20.com,2007-11-05:649749:Comment:716122007-11-05T23:25:38.808ZIan Grove-Stephensenhttps://www.classroom20.com/profile/yacapaca
Great question!<br />
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I would require every adult at age 25 (not earlier) to vote for "The teacher who most inspired me". The top 5% of teachers from this vote would<br />
1. have their salary doubled<br />
2. be relieved of all non-teaching responsibilities (including managerial ones)<br />
3. be assigned 2 interns to sit at their feet and find out how to <i>really</i> teach.
Great question!<br />
<br />
I would require every adult at age 25 (not earlier) to vote for "The teacher who most inspired me". The top 5% of teachers from this vote would<br />
1. have their salary doubled<br />
2. be relieved of all non-teaching responsibilities (including managerial ones)<br />
3. be assigned 2 interns to sit at their feet and find out how to <i>really</i> teach. >> It's just adding ins…tag:www.classroom20.com,2007-11-05:649749:Comment:715902007-11-05T22:29:34.667ZEd Joneshttps://www.classroom20.com/profile/EdJones
>> It's just adding insult to injury that pre-service teachers obtain masters' degrees, when they haven't yet experienced the profession, much less mastered it.<br />
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Oh, indeed! In fact, studies show that unless your MA is in math or something, it doesn't matter when you take it, MA's (statistically) won't help:<br />
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" The evidence is conclusive that master’s degrees do not make teachers more effective. In fact, ... Some studies have even shown that master’s degrees have a slightly negative…
>> It's just adding insult to injury that pre-service teachers obtain masters' degrees, when they haven't yet experienced the profession, much less mastered it.<br />
<br />
Oh, indeed! In fact, studies show that unless your MA is in math or something, it doesn't matter when you take it, MA's (statistically) won't help:<br />
<br />
" The evidence is conclusive that master’s degrees do not make teachers more effective. In fact, ... Some studies have even shown that master’s degrees have a slightly negative impact on student achievement" -- <a href="http://www.nctq.org/nctq/images/nctq_io.pdf">Increasing the Odds: How Good Policies can Yield Better Teachers</a>, p2.<br />
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>> Nobody loves (or leaves) teaching because of Bloom's taxonomy, or because of diversity awareness, or the 38 other classes you take...<br />
True, too! But then, not many engineers truly love a good Eigenvalue, Fourier Transform, or Lagrange equation. Yet, you never know when you might need to talk to someone who does; and later may not be the time to learn.<br />
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>>Teaching is more like sales than engineering.<br />
This is a great insight / comparison. I'd totally agree that professors of education tend to have what I call "Physics envy". That is, they want to take a profession that is 10,000 years old and try to remake it just so they have many complicated words to wave about. I have a friend who ended up selling electron microscopes. Did he need all of his education? You bet! Was the education mostly (or even partly) theory of sales? Of course not!<br />
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>> then I would say skip education classes altogether and go for things that make you a more developed human >> being: languages, literature, logic, oratory, and so on.<br />
Languages, literature, logic, oratory, accounting, chemistry, history, economics wouldn't make one a better teacher?<br />
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> If that constraint is necessary to the exercise<br />
Not at all!! I was trying to get alternate discussion paths started. "So is the idea that you get…tag:www.classroom20.com,2007-11-05:649749:Comment:715502007-11-05T20:19:12.812ZJeremy Aldrichhttps://www.classroom20.com/profile/gxeremio
"So is the idea that you get more out of college if you've already been in the work force--in the profession"<br />
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Well, that's part of it. Teaching is more like sales than engineering. Does someone go to school for 4 years to become a salesman, only getting to actually try to sell something for the last semester out of 8? I mean, it's ridiculous, really. It's just adding insult to injury that pre-service teachers obtain masters' degrees, when they haven't yet experienced the profession, much less…
"So is the idea that you get more out of college if you've already been in the work force--in the profession"<br />
<br />
Well, that's part of it. Teaching is more like sales than engineering. Does someone go to school for 4 years to become a salesman, only getting to actually try to sell something for the last semester out of 8? I mean, it's ridiculous, really. It's just adding insult to injury that pre-service teachers obtain masters' degrees, when they haven't yet experienced the profession, much less mastered it.<br />
<br />
Nobody loves (or leaves) teaching because of Bloom's taxonomy, or because of diversity awareness, or the 38 other classes you take during four years of undergrad playtime. It seems to me that teacher preparation should focus on preparing professionals for the real world of education they will soon face - sink or swim. If schools of education can't (or won't) do that, then we should use the money elsewhere.<br />
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"What would you do within the 4 year institution? If you had 1000 freshmen education students, the above catastrophe occurred, and you had to otherwise educate them on the same campus, using the all the other faculty and resources available? To what classes would you send them?"<br />
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It's hard to answer this without feeling like it's settling for less than the best by putting on the false constraint of separating the students from the real world. If that constraint is necessary to the exercise, then I would say skip education classes altogether and go for things that make you a more developed human being: languages, literature, logic, oratory, and so on.