Why use MS Office anymore on student lab machines??

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Matt Montagne on June 16, 2008 at 9:47am

One other thing...there was an excellent post written on the Infinite Thinking Machine about promoting digital equity through FOSS:

http://www.infinitethinking.org/2008/02/promoting-digital-equity-wi...

Permalink Reply by Dave Cowell on December 3, 2008 at 4:16am

"you should not be teaching Word, Excel, WordPerfect, Writer, etc. You should be teaching principals NOT specific tools"

This is the cornerstone of the whole argument I believe. Imagine if we only knew 1 package. I teach accounting, and there are 2 main suites in Australia. Its like a North Vs South, East Vs West.

The important thing is that we teach students to be resilient and adaptable, so they can function in a dynamic world.

Dave

Permalink Reply by Reynard on December 3, 2008 at 9:43am

That's very true. And I think in almost all cases, people who are trained in Open Office (or other open source software) are more resilient, because they learn it with the mindset of "this is just one tool to accomplish something" as opposed to MS Office where they learn it thinking this is the only tool to get a job. I can't tell you how many "MS certified [put whatever you want]" people are so closed minded, or to put it bluntly "dumb", when it comes to adapting their skill in dynamic world. (I don't mean that you're dumb if you have MS certified title, it's just if that's the only thing you know, then it's like you never travel outside your hometown)

So if I'm seeing 2 resumes with open office and MS office on the skillset, I would definitely prefer the one with Open Office skills (with everything else being equal like identical twins :)

Permalink Reply by Steve Lee on June 16, 2008 at 7:12pm

@Petaris:"Why would you make the assumption that most family's home PCs have MS Office? "

Just empirically speaking, I didn't think it was all that far fetched a notion.

From Bloomberg News:
"President Jeff Raikes of Microsoft Corp.'s Business Division says Office software revenue could double from 2002 levels to reach $20 billion by 2010."
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/269746_msftoffice11.html



@Petaris:"if you teach a specific tool not only will you have trouble adapting to any other tool but you will have to teach them again the with the next version (Think Office2k/XP/2k3 compared to 2007)."

Doesn't that apply to teaching Open Office as well? Is OO a non-specific tool? Won't they also have versioning with changes that need to be taught? From OpenOffice.org NINJA: "OpenOffice.org 2.4 is now released and ushers in new features, bug fixes, and performance improvements."(Think StarOffice, Open Office 1.0, / 2.0 / 2.4)


@Petaris: "I really don't think you will see too many people rushing to buy MS Office for their macs."

Maybe not rushing, but from the numbers below, they aren't dawdling either. Lot's of people are buying MS office for MAC. I did.

From Microsoft Watch: "Office 2004 for the Mac is selling like hot cakes."

""Twenty percent of all the versions of Microsoft Office sold at retail are the Mac version," said Chris Swenson, NPD's director of software industry analysis. "Office 2004 for the Mac is selling like hot cakes." Swenson quoted numbers for U.S. online and in-store retail. "
http://www.microsoft-watch.com/content/business_applications/micros...

From CNET NEWS: "Office for Mac 2008 are flying off the shelves"

"Microsoft's Mac unit is set to disclose on Tuesday that copies of the new Office for Mac 2008 are flying off the shelves at three times the rate of its predecessor. The company wouldn't disclose sales numbers, but said the sales are the highest in the 19-year history of the unit. That continues a trend that has been going on for some time. "
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13860_3-9942251-56.html

@Petaris:"If you teach principals then you can adapt to any tool"

Of course, you can. I am advocating cutting to the chase and teach the tools mostly widely in use. Let people adapt to secondary and tertiary products like OO as needed, if at all.

@Petaris:"If you really think OpenOffice is that different then I really doubt you have ever used it. "

Ah, yes but I have. You see, something for free is the holy grail of budget strapped districts and penny wise teachers all across the land. I am a computer teacher. Set a complete lab with a SuSE linux server, and tried out Open Office just about every year for the last 4 years. Horribly slow on P4's with 512mb ram.

@Petaris:"Your keyboard comparison isn't really accurate. Your comparing two completely different layouts..."
Yes but what's wrong with that if you're supposed to be teaching "principals" as you said. Keyboarding principles can be taught on either board No?

Now I know that speaking out against open source in this exact forum is like praising Vista in a Mac forum, I will be the pariah simply for trying to present a strong contrasting viewpoint. I am reminded of my dads' saying of my penchant for playing devils advocate " A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still"

So I don't expect anyone here to change their mind at all, I just want to present an alternative view.

Permalink Reply by Paul Anderson on June 19, 2008 at 10:23am

Here are some of my thoughts to what you are saying.

In response to : From Bloomberg News:
"President Jeff Raikes of Microsoft Corp.'s Business Division says Office software revenue could double from 2002 levels to reach $20 billion by 2010."

The pricing structure of Office is changing, we now pay 33% more for office than we did in 2002, so this does not mean that there will be any more computers using, only that the revenue is "supposed" to doulbe.

In response to: "Of course, you can. I am advocating cutting to the chase and teach the tools mostly widely in use. Let people adapt to secondary and tertiary products like OO as needed, if at all."

If what you say about only teaching MS Office, which MS Office are you talking about? The one for Windows or the one for Mac's? Even though they share the same title, they are different programs and they do look and act differently! Yes, I know they are close, but then again, so is OpenOffice.org and versions of MS Office prior to 2007!

In fact, using your reasoning for MS Office, you are also saying that Mac's have no place in schools (or at least OS X)! Why do I say that?
1. Windows PC's make up more than 90% of all computers, Macs make up less 5% (and I am being very generous).
2. OpenOffice is being used on more computers than Mac OSX (this includes the many Mac users who are using and enjoying OpenOffice,but even if no Macs used OpenOffice, the numbers would still be higher).
3. There are many other analogies that could be used here, but I think most will get my drift.

( I am not advocating, not using Macs, but using Steve's logic, he is trying to have his cake and eat it too)

In response to: """Twenty percent of all the versions of Microsoft Office sold at retail are the Mac version," said Chris Swenson, NPD's director of software industry analysis. "Office 2004 for the Mac is selling like hot cakes." Swenson quoted numbers for U.S. online and in-store retail. "
http://www.microsoft-watch.com/content/business_applications/micros... "

I think this is more of a reflection of how poor sales are for Office 2007 for Windows. Also, most Office for Windows purchases are online (sales generated when the "FREE" MS Office that came with the computer expires).

In response to the DVORAK keyboard:

The keyboard setup is actually in the OS and not in the keyboard itself. While there is a chip in the keyboard so that the OS can identify it, there is nothing stopping you from using your QWERTY keyboard as a DVORAK or vice-versa. And actually you may have a good idea! In researching this topic, I have found almost everything about the DVORAK keyboard to be positive. Here are a few of the links that I found.

http://www.siteuri.ro/dvorak/
http://www.dvorak-keyboard.com/
http://www.dvorak-keyboards.com/Typing_the_Dvorak_keyboard_our_expe...
http://www.lifehack.org/articles/technology/increase-productivity-a...
http://www.ilovejackdaniels.com/blog/dvorak-vs-qwerty/

In fact, I am going to try it myself, as I have had problems with my hands for years, so I will get to see for myself, if it helps.
(Does anyone reading this use DVORAK keyboard? )

My personal thoughts on this, are that MS Office is NOT needed (neither is OpenOffice), you can use and teach any Office suite and it will be better than not doing it all! In my district, we spend about $15,000 a year for MS Office, and if the number of computers increases so does this cost. For $15,000 a year we could be purchasing another 15-30 computers each year.
The salesmen for these companies go to the schools and say "you should be teaching this, because all the business world is (or going to be) using it" then they go to the business world and say "you need to be using our products because thats what all the schools are teaching"! It is a vicious cycle, but as long as everyone pays, they will continue the spin.
I personally think that the benefits of another hundred or more computers are much better than anything MS Office offers over that of OpenOffice.Org. I am a believer in one to one computing, and I don't think that it is sustainable to continue to pay for these kinds of things. I actually think that Microsoft should be paying schools to train people on the use of their products! I think that schools using MS Office, benefit Microsoft more than Microsoft benefits schools.
I think Mike Huffman and Indiana's InAccess program are more of an answer for our schools http://indianaaccess.blogspot.com/ .
In order to change and improve things, we need to embrace new ideas and make changes. This is the biggest problem that I think is facing us today, everyone knows that there needs to changes, but no one wants to change! The bad news is that change will not happen for many years.
So if you have lots of money to give away, then by all means give it to Microsoft, but if you don't think you should be giving away taxpayers money, then download OpenOffice and experience "Free"dom and some extra money to buy things that actually will make a difference!

Permalink Reply by Randy Orwin on November 10, 2008 at 8:03pm

Paul, I am in agreement with you on most points of your post. As a tech director in a district of 3800 students we are in our 3rd year of transitioning to OpenOffice. Rather than spend our savings on hardware we are spending every penny, $50,000 per year on professional development. We have a variety of areas where we can get funds for hardware but few for training. In my opinion a lack of professional development is the biggest problem that we have in schools today. We spend billions on hardware and then just expect teachers to know how to use it. Until we start providing the training in technology integration, we are wasting a bunch of money on hardware that rarely impacts teaching and learning in a measurable way.

As far as teaching an application, sure you are teaching an application no matter what software you use. We do need to teach concepts of word processing, spreadsheets, presentations etc... If one truly understands the concepts behind the application, using another application is just "buttonology", finding the where for what you want to do, and in most cases it is not that hard to find.

Another nice thing is that I can provide a robust office suite for any student that can't afford MS Office, Word Perfect etc... and it alleviates any compatibility problems if all kids at home have the same software that we use in the schools.

Permalink Reply by Matt Montagne on November 11, 2008 at 10:59am

Wow, that is a great story Randy. Congrats on your success. I wish you could bottle up your recipe and create a potion that we could give out to the decision makers. A move to open source options makes so much sense. And with the economy the way it is the US right now, I have a hunch we're going to see more of a movement toward open source in K12. Other countries are years ahead of the US in their adoption of open source office suites, desktop operating systems, and other client apps. I, too, would much rather spend tens of thousands of dollars on things that really matter like professional development and low cost laptops for our students instead of spending the money on proprietary software.

Again, I want to congratulate you on your success and thanks for sharing your story here.

Matt Montagne
Palo Alto, California

Permalink Reply by Michael Wacker on November 12, 2008 at 7:45am

Great posts, very informative!
I love the opensource, opencourse movements...there's so much out there.

Permalink Reply by Barry Bakin on May 25, 2011 at 12:31pm

If you teach the principals, maybe they'll support using open source software! ;)

Permalink Reply by Joseph Chmielewski on July 12, 2010 at 7:50am

Quote:

"But in the real world, tools matter and specific skills using specific applications matter enough that people get hired or not hired, paid and not paid, because of well developed skills with those apps. Think Adobe PhotoShop, DreamWeaver, Final Cut Pro. Think Microsoft Office, not some generic office package."

At last some real sense in this discussion.

Let's get at the real issue underlying this discussion; i.e., school districts try to educate "on the cheap" and fail to fund technology projects to a level that ensures success.

The failures to plan and fund (for technology and much else) to appropriate levels leads to the burden for implementation being placed upon teachers.

Of course teachers are going to resist.

So, why create an additional challenge for teachers by having them deal with multiple file formats because our school districts don't want to pay for the tools that teachers need?

Not only should school districts pay for MS Office, but school districts should provide the software for every teacher on the district laptops that teachers use at home.

I use lots of open source applications, but when I need real tools; I generally go with the commercial products because the open source applications lack the power I need. (Of course, most students don't need that kind of power and flexibility in the applications that they use...but their teachers do.)

It speaks to our failure to integrate technology that this discussion finds traction. If teachers were trained to use software correctly, they would demand top-quality products. Instead, many teachers shun technology (or do the minimum that their supervisors demand) because professional development and backend network support are not available.

Instead of telling school district executives and high-level managers that "make-do" software is available "on the cheap;" tell these folks that they have to do a better job "funding what maters" and stop wasting money on all the "no-payoff/ low-payoff" ideas that they currently fund. (Excessive testing, benchmark testing, teaching to the test are examples of money going "down the drain.")

Lack of courage to "tell it like it is" to school district executives and managers is the corollary of this issue.

Permalink Reply by Alline Sada on November 4, 2009 at 7:16pm

I've been using Open Office in my grades 1 to 9 lab for the past 6 years.

I find that students learn the SKILL and PROCESS better since they must actually read the screen to find tools and functions, instead of clicking automatically as they would at home.

Of course, 6 years later they are masters!

IMPORTANT: I have had issues when they "forget" to change file types to more commercial extensions. There are very few places that will open their work! It is important that they get used to saving correctly!

Permalink Reply by Joel Garcia on November 11, 2009 at 3:53pm

I say let's expose our students to all options if possible. My students work with MS Office in our school lab. I happen to have an Edubuntu lab with 14 computers in my fifth grade classroom. They work with Open Office everyday and have no problem switching to MS Office when they are in the lab. We also use Scribus. In fact, my students are exposed to the Apple operating system as well as to Linux. My students learn fast. I think our students should be exposed to all variations and types of technology. This will make a well rounded tech. savvy learner. If you have the resources, go buy MS Office. If you are like me, wanting to integrate technology into your everyday teaching with very limited funding, Open Office is the way to go. Actually, these days, you can buy a thin client computer for the price of a MS Office license. Both Office Suites work well and will create a good product. I rarely use MS Office anymore and it doesn't matter. I am still able to share, documents, spreadsheets, and presentations with all my Microsoft friends.

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